Challenge E: Discussion fom the dini e-list

Messages
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1a. breaking DI news
    Posted by: "Anvai" 
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 8:22 am ((PST))

I am a first time TM and my EL team chose struture challenge. We did all the testing with bits and pieces as given in books and read about various terminology from books and internet and still dont know how to build a structure to hold so much weight. What happens to first-timers. Does this become like a learning experience for kids. Is that the approach i should take so kids dont feel diappointed. Is it TM's inability to lead kids to success by giving them proper resources and teaching. Or should kids be smart enough to tackle their challenge. Just thinking aloud here.
Welcome to The Museum of Science and Industry
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1b. Re: breaking DI news
    Posted by: "Mike Burda"
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 9:04 am ((PST))

Anvai,

This is my fifth year managing challenge E.

I am not an educator so I would invite any educators to correct or amend any
statements that I make but my observations have been that teams - especially
elementary -  teams struggle when moving from a two dimensional design to a
three dimensional strucutre.

I think that is true of any situation. A flat diagram is easier to create
than a three dimensional diagram. I think that this is especially true when
elementary kids try and create structures by themselves. Simply put the
number of hands that one child has may not be sufficient for the task of
assembling a three dimensional object.

I would suggest that you work to create environments conducive for team
building.

I am currently working with a middle school team. Fortunately, they are able
to construct structures independently. However, it should be noted that the
time that they take to construct a structure can be measured in hours.
Helping an elementary team see the process of building a structure in
discrete events can be helpful. That is, instead of focusing on the
structure as a whole, can your team articulate the individual aspects of
designing and building a structure.

I know that they can. Any team that has been working on this challenge can
do so. However, they may see the process as one  long slog and become
frustrated that they cannot complete all of it. This is true with adults.
Stay away from breaking the process into separate events for them as that is
part of their design and would technically be interference.

Instead, ask the team to identify step 1 and step 2 and step 3 and so
on..... As a team manger, you can record those steps for them so that they
can review later (not interference to record - careful not to editorialize
or embellish).

And if you attend tournament with a structure that won't hold the tester
board, you won't be the first team. I can attest to that from personal
experience. It can be hard on a team but if they take what they have and
present it, they will learn from it.

If a parent asks you what happened, relay all that you have tried and
suggest that they join you for the next practice or next year or... Failure
can be a great recruiting tool for future team managers (and not to replace
but to assist).

Sincerely,

Mike

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1c. Re: breaking DI news
    Posted by: "hairylunch" 
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 10:10 am ((PST))

Structure is a pretty intense challenge, in terms of accumulated knowledge.
The jump from a first year team to a second year team due to experience is
usually huge.

First things first, I'd point out:

http://www.structure.texasdi.org/

<http://www.structure.texasdi.org/>I think for structure, I'd spend a lot of
time on the learning experiences. Of course, being an engineer by training,
I'd focus on the mechanics - focusing on common points of failure, such as
joints, whether the structure is plumb, whether it's level, etc.  For older
teams, I'd start looking at buckling and design aspects.

I think another thing to focus on is the tournament experience.  Watch other
teams, try to see their structures, etc.  It might even be worth seeing if
there are older teams in the area that might be willing to mentor and teach
some skills (always being cautious of the interference line, though older
teams are usually pretty good at self-policing interfence).

Like Mike says, it's not unusual for a first year team's structure not to
hold the crusher board . . . and even if you look at scores from Globals,
once you move beyond the top ten teams or so, the disparity between the top
and bottom is huge.  Lots of factors go into structures, and to get to the
towering stacks of weight takes a fair amount of dedication.

ernie

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1d. Re: breaking DI news
    Posted by: "Mike Burda"
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:04 am ((PST))

This is not meant to be directed at Ernie but one of the areas where I think
DI struggles is the management of interference.

I know team managers that keep parents at arm's length from team members to
avoid the issue of interference. It is a logical and sound approach.

I have been fortunate to work with the same core group of kids for the last
two years. That also means the same core group of parents. I know that my
parents want to be involved in the DI process. I opt to work with with
parents to ensure that they understand where the "imaginary line of
interference" lives.

Funny, after 5 years of doing this, with my wife appraising and team
managing, we cannot always agree on what is interference. (That my wife and
I don't always agree is not new ;-).

My question is.

Is it interference if I show this site,  http://www.structure.texasdi.org/,  to
my team on Tuesday (our next practice)?

I was not aware of this site, nor do I believe that my team has viewed it.

Again, this is not directed at Ernie but it is meant to be a discussion of
where that imaginary line of interference exists? I definitely don't want
this e-mail to stifle further discussion because I think that this list can
be used to have a valuable discussion on subjects like interference.

Sincerely,

Mike________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: breaking DI news
    Posted by: "hairylunch" 
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:06 pm ((PST))

Mike et al,

I <3 your question, as it comes up commonly, and as your example of you and
your wife points out, has no black and white answer.

When my structure resource site was up (gone now with the demise of
geocities, though I've been meaning to place the resources back on
mt-di.org. . . ), I took a pretty liberal approach and shared lots of
aspects about
structure - talking about a hodge-podge of things from drying structures,
glue selection, design, weight placement, and lots of other issues . . . I
saw all of these as tools, and while some structure competitors would see
these as trade secrets, I thought having to discover it all would be the
equivalent of reinventing the wheel (mainly since I see all these as
structure basics) . . .

I don't see your showing them this website as interference, as I think
plenty of TMs provide resources to their teams.  Granted, we want to
encourage team members to research, but I remember way back when I was on my
first CPS team and we were doing a problem dealing with Greek mythology, our
coach had a stack of books from the library dealing with mythology.  Would
that be interference (outside assistance in Odyssey terms)?

ernie
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1f. Interference
    Posted by: "Jennita Speicher" 
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:19 pm ((PST))

The Interference triangle as laid out in the Rules of the Road is the best place to start.  The two parts of the base of the triangle are The Challenge and Skills.  The top part of the triangle is the team's solution. The team first needs to understand what the challenge is asking them to do. The challenge is the one thing that everyone has in common from the team, to the manager, appraisers, and other officials. Also, in my opinion, we can teach kids all kinds of skills and should teach them all kinds of skills.  Skills in the areas of theatre arts, improvisation, engineering, architecture, robotics, and anything else necessary for "doing" DI are the things the kids will keep with them forever.  A team manager who doesn't teach skills is just allowing a team to struggle. 

There is no interference in teaching kids about structures and then letting them experiment with what makes a structure strong.  A team manager can help them understand why a certain shape is stronger than another.  As long as the kids do the actual design and construction of the structure they use in competition, a team manager isn't crossing the line by teaching them the principles of physics and engineering.  If we don't teach them, how are they supposed to know?  It is exactly the same thing as teaching a team member how to sew, but not how to sew the costumes used in the presentation. 

The structure challenge (no matter what materials are required) has a huge learning curve just as Ernie has said.  When people wonder why the same teams win over and over again, I tell them that unlike any of the other challenges there is a base of knowledge that accumulates over the years in the structure challenge. Many of the principles are the same no matter what building material is required for this year's challenge.  Principles like the importance of a structure that sits level on the tester board, how to efficiently load weights, what shapes and types of joints make for a strong structure, how long does it take for various types of glue to cure are common to all structure challenges.  Many teams starting out don't have a structure tester to test the structure before the tournament or even a scale that weighs to .1 of a gram. They don't understand the weight held ratio.  Other teams have been learning these things over the years and build 20, 50, 80 or more structures
before they get to the tournament, they are even changing their structure design according to the maximum pole height available at the tournament. 

Some of you might disagree with me, but I hate to see kids come to a tournament that haven't learned basic skills because the team manager was afraid of interference.  Remember, stay totally away from the team's solution and you will be ok. 

Jennita
ATD InDIana   

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1g. Re: breaking DI news
    Posted by: "Judy Nolan" 
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:41 pm ((PST))

One way to avoid Interference as a Team Manager, when pointing out resources to your team (no matter what the Challenge might be), is to make sure you are sharing a broad range of resources that can be helpful, rather than what you deem to be the best resource. The key here is to make the team aware of its options, then let the students make their own choices. My recommendation would be to point students to the following range of resources, and give them the opportunity to learn how to research:

DISC Resource WIKI: http://diresources.wikispaces.com/
DI of New York Web Resource Links: http://nydi.org/webresources.htm
Illinois DI Team Manager Network: http://www.illinoisdestinationimagination.org/tmnetwork

There are other excellent lists of resources on various DI Affiliate sites, but this is a start. Again, the key is to provide a RANGE of resources, then allow the students to make their own selections.

Judy Nolan
Co-Affiliate Training Director
Students for a Creative Iowa
Tel. 515-270-4514
E-mail: judynolan@aol.com
State Web Site: http://www.cre8iowa.org
Support Newsletter: http://cre8iowa.blogspot.com
Automated Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cre8iowa/
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1i. Re: breaking DI news
    Posted by: "szmunns" 
    Date: Mon Feb 1, 2010 5:25 pm ((PST))

Along these same lines, teaching the team how to use google effectively can open up a whole world of useful information to them.  Have they tried googling for "Destination Imagination structure team resources"?  That's usually a good place to start each year... it can work for "improv team resources", "technical team resources", etc.

Sharon M. in Maryland